And then all the pro-privacy arguments were done on Youtube, owned by one of the most privacy unfriendly corporations on Earth.

Thats an understatement. I forget where exactly but I saw a video presentation by
someone at google about the lengths they will go to track you even in a private browser
session.

---

Re: RE: the nothing to hide a
By: TheMemeWarrior to ARELOR on Mon Jan 31 2022 04:22 pm

And then all the pro-privacy arguments were done on Youtube, owned by one of the most privacy unfriendly corporations on Earth.

Thats an understatement. I forget where exactly but I saw a video presentation by
someone at google about the lengths they will go to track you even in a private browser
session.

yeah what happened to do no evil
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: RE: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to TheMemeWarrior on Sat Feb 05 2022 01:55 am

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

---
þ Synchronet þ BBS for Amstrad computer users including CPC, PPC and PCW!

Re: RE: the nothing to hide a
By: Andeddu to MRO on Thu Feb 10 2022 07:06 pm

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if it is convienient for them.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if
it is convienient for them.

So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply for privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) that Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Fri Feb 11 2022 12:35 pm

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if it is convienient for them.

So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply for privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) that Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

our phones and the services we use on desktop computers are most certainly spying the fuck out of us.
several apps and browsers and cookies are all part of it.

it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Fri Feb 11 2022 12:35 pm

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil if it is convienient for them.

So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply for privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) tha Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

What perplexes me, is that there are people I know (admittedly few), who share these concerns, greatly, but still buy these items. One I know will talk about Big Tech censorship, how Google skews its searches and manipulates us, but you can "Hey Google" in his house and Google responds!

I think in part people arguing that privacy isn't important is a cope. They feel powerless, unwilling to fight or make the harder consumer choices to maintain freedom, so they just reorganise their values to suit the situation pushed upon then.

People only really started using this "privacy doesn't matter" argument once

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þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Otto Reverse on Fri Feb 11 2022 04:56 pm

our phones and the services we use on desktop computers are most certainly spying the fuck out of us.
several apps and browsers and cookies are all part of it.

it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.

That is incredibly unethical, and these companies have the gall to crow about their values and their goodness and how they are socially responsible.

Silicon Valley truly is satans arsehole of the world, where awefulness emerges to stain the world.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Hello MRO!

** On Friday 11.02.22 - 16:56, MRO wrote to Otto Reverse:

it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.

A lament on privacy from 1972..

https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4


--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Ogg to MRO on Sat Feb 12 2022 09:12 am

Hello MRO!

** On Friday 11.02.22 - 16:56, MRO wrote to Otto Reverse:

it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.

A lament on privacy from 1972..

https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4

Time to start pushing back, through example.

There is one rule that I think everyone should adopt. Electronic communication should not be broadcast further than the intended audience.

The mistake was the "open internet", where everything that people did was automatically public. We got to thinking that when we use the "Internet", it must be public. The Internet is really just a means of conveying data packets from one machine to another, and there is nothing which says this should be visible to all.

We've made ourselves not expect privacy, and therefore don't really deserve it.
Back in the 90's, when you messaged on a BBS, is stayed there. Now when you do, it gets broadcast everywhere. This message will be public, even though you have to get an account to post it, and the server (BBS) has to sign up to spread it.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Otto Reverse on Fri Feb 11 2022 04:56 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Fri Feb 11 2022 12:35 pm

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Hasn't affected their popularity though. Humans are happy with evil it is convienient for them.

So true. Used to be a time when people wanted things like privacy simply privacy's sake. Remember phone booths? Now people know (even if vaguely) that Google/Apple/Amazon are listening in yet they still buy "smart speakers" etc for the convenience.

our phones and the services we use on desktop computers are most certainly s several apps and browsers and cookies are all part of it.

it's too late, we handed it to them. we wont get our privacy back.

There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, and it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app store collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source apps
and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The
Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physically sh ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Hello Boraxman!

** On Sunday 13.02.22 - 11:01, Boraxman wrote to Ogg:

A lament on privacy from 1972..

https://kolico.ca/mpg/TGC1972-privacy.mp4

Time to start pushing back, through example.

[...]

The mistake was the "open internet", where everything that
people did was automatically public. We got to thinking
that when we use the "Internet", it must be public. The
Internet is really just a means of conveying data packets
from one machine to another, and there is nothing which
says this should be visible to all.

when I first participated in email, I was amused that it was so
easy to route one's email through any particular server that
would allow it. I believe the technique was using the ! symbol
(bang path notation). The "net" seemed to be open to the finger
command too.

We've made ourselves not expect privacy, and therefore
don't really deserve it. Back in the 90's, when you
messaged on a BBS, is stayed there. Now when you do, it
gets broadcast everywhere. This message will be public,
even though you have to get an account to post it, and the
server (BBS) has to sign up to spread it.

The "narrative" from higher-up was not to expect privacy, but
before then, I don't think most people expected to have the
content of their email and activities on the internet
monitored.

Convenience does seem to trump privacy though. :(

Check out my post here a few months ago:

MID: 723:320/1.9@dovenet f4270dd1

Subject: Privacy is Power: take back your control
Date: Su 05.09.21, 23:46

The book outlines very practical steps that people can adopt.


--

--- OpenXP 5.0.51
* Origin: Ogg's Dovenet Point (723:320/1.9)
þ Synchronet þ CAPCITY2 * capcity2.synchro.net * Telnet/SSH:2022/Rlogin/HTTP

ANDEDDU wrote to <=-

yeah what happened to do no evil

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

... An armed populace is the greatest insurance against tyrany.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ wcQWK 8.0 ÷ Inland Utopia * iutopia.duckdns.org:2323

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, and it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app store collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source apps and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physically sh ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

i might try one out, but i just bought a phone a few months ago because i broke my camera lense when having it in my back pocket. i was rolling around on the ground changing a tire. THAT phone wasnt even old
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, and it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app store collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source apps and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physically ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functionality. My current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don't need much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will do my fine. Play some music and I'm set.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Ogg to Boraxman on Sun Feb 13 2022 12:13 pm

when I first participated in email, I was amused that it was so
easy to route one's email through any particular server that
would allow it. I believe the technique was using the ! symbol
(bang path notation). The "net" seemed to be open to the finger
command too.

The "narrative" from higher-up was not to expect privacy
before then, I don't think most people expected to have the
content of their email and activities on the internet
monitored.

Convenience does seem to trump privacy though. :(

Check out my post here a few months ago:

MID: 723:320/1.9@dovenet f4270dd1

Subject: Privacy is Power: take back your control
Date: Su 05.09.21, 23:46

The book outlines very practical steps that people can adopt.

They didn't expect it, and when people found out they shrugged their shoulders, because, well, what can you do? I think we need to change culturally, go back to valuing discretion. People don't really understand what they are doing online, and don't consider it an analogue of what happens in your private life.

Take for example meeting people in a pub, you have a conversation. You would NOT expect the entire world to be able to view that conversation. Maybe others in the pub will overhear, but it's not searchable. Or you join a Linux Users Group and you discuss having a BBQ with others at a meeting, again, that would be just for those in the group, not something that people in Russia or around your city would find out about. People wouldn't be able to know who went where and when.

But when it comes to the "internet", we kind of don't apply those standards. A group is public. Take fsxNet, we were discussing a meet up in Melbourne. This should be considered something only relevant to those in fsxNet, but you would (when we plan to), be able to Google search the event, and anyone in the world would know who went where and when. This doesn't sit right with me, it is very weird, but we still haven't gotten used to that.

In a way,, I'm advocating a more closed Internet. Web pages, public forums should remain public, but communication should be, by default, by convention and politeness, be only for the audience participating.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDEDDU on Sun Feb 13 2022 08:38 pm

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality of results as Google?

I've thought about moving away from Google, though I've gotten very used to Gmail, and I've been using Android phones for years..

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to MATTHEW MUNSON on Mon Feb 14 2022 10:21 am

What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality results as Google?

I've thought about moving away from Google, though I've gotten very used to Gmail, and I've been using Android phones for years..

Nightfox

You could use Startpage, which is a proxy/frontend to google.

Duckduckgo is also popular. It is a proxy/frontend for Bing.

Then there are tonnes of Metasearchers, such as a lot of freely available
Searx instances., or Xaarky.

Those generate quality results for searches. Beyond that, it is uncharted territory. Gigablast is worthy of mention because it is both a FOSS search engine you can install and deploy (it takes a lot of resources) and a website you can use for your searches (gigablast.com). Results are not that good, though.

BUt the best search engine is Veronica 2 for gopherspace. \o/

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Arelor to Nightfox on Mon Feb 14 2022 01:45 pm

You could use Startpage, which is a proxy/frontend to google.

That's interesting, I hadn't heard about that. I'll have to check it out.

Duckduckgo is also popular. It is a proxy/frontend for Bing.

I thought DuckDuckGo was its own search engine.. Didn't know it was a frontend for Bing.

Then there are tonnes of Metasearchers, such as a lot of freely available Searx instances., or Xaarky.

I remember using one years ago called SavvySearch. I thought they had disappeared, but it looks like they still exist (maybe they went away for a while and came back?) It looks like they're owned by CBS now.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to Ogg on Mon Feb 14 2022 20:30:20

Take for example meeting people in a pub, you have a conversation. You would NOT expect the entire world to be able to view that conversation. Maybe others in the pub will overhear, but it's not searchable. Or you join a Linux Users Group and you discuss having a BBQ with others at a meeting, again, that would be just for those in the group, not something that people in Russia or around your city would find out about. People wouldn't be able to know who went where and when.

But when it comes to the "internet", we kind of don't apply those standards. A group is public. Take fsxNet, we were discussing a meet up in Melbourne. This should be considered something only relevant to those in fsxNet, but you would (when we plan to), be able to Google search the event, and anyone in the world would know who went where and when. This doesn't sit right with me, it is very weird, but we still haven't gotten used to that.

In a way,, I'm advocating a more closed Internet. Web pages, public forums should remain public, but communication should be, by default, by convention and politeness, be only for the audience participating.

I can certainly see your point. It's sort of like when my aunt (who is not very tech savvy) thinks she is sending a private message to me in Facebook, but she actually posts that message on her wall for everyone to see. She intended for it to be a private conversation, but now everyone on her friend's list can see it. Also, if her setting on FB are set a certain way, the entire planet can see it just through a simple Google search. If it were a personal matter, then it only gets worse from there.

---
þ Synchronet þ I got DIBZ on it! (dibz.synchro.net)

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Feb 14 2022 08:18 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phone, it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app stor collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source app and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. The Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physical ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functionality. current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don't need much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will do my fine. Play some music and I'm set.

Believe it or not I was happy with my personal phone being a flip phone with
a pre-paid one year plan. If work required me to have a smart phone, the company would issue me one and i would noit install any non-business apps on it.

Anyways, 3G is being dropped in my area and has been decreasing all around my area. I was forced to upgrade. Tracfone had a special going on, and I got a Samsung A11 for free after the discount.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to MATTHEW MUNSON on Mon Feb 14 2022 10:21 am

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDEDDU on Sun Feb 13 2022 08:38 pm

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality of results as Google?

bing is actually damn good. it's just that i use google by habit.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

On 2/14/2022 10:21 AM, NIGHTFOX wrote to MATTHEW MUNSON:

Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality of results

as Google?
Bing at home and Duck Duck Go for work browsing.

---
þ wcQWK 8.0 ÷ Inland Utopia * iutopia.duckdns.org:2323

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to MATTHEW MUNSON on Mon Feb 14 2022 10:21 am

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MATTHEW MUNSON to ANDEDDU on Sun Feb 13 2022 08:38 pm

They removed that motto back in 2018 after doing a lot of evil.

Yup. I try my best to de-google my web browsers.

What search engine do you use? And do you think it returns the same quality results as Google?

I've thought about moving away from Google, though I've gotten very used to Gmail, and I've been using Android phones for years..

Nightfox

Duck Duck Go is better in some instances, particularly if you are searching something where there might be an incentive to skew the results. Searching for any topic where there might be non-narrative views will yield a wider variety of hits on Duck Duck Go than Google. Sometimes, the difference is stark. There is a very obvious bias to Google now.

Google is still better in some specific situations, when searching something technical with very specific search terms, but Duck Duck Go is good enough to be my default. Google as a backup.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: SYS64738 to Boraxman on Mon Feb 14 2022 09:18 am

I can certainly see your point. It's sort of like when my aunt (who is not very tech savvy) thinks she is sending a private message to me in Facebook, she actually posts that message on her wall for everyone to see. She intende for it to be a private conversation, but now everyone on her friend's list c see it. Also, if her setting on FB are set a certain way, the entire planet see it just through a simple Google search. If it were a personal matter, t it only gets worse from there.

Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Google search.

Defaults matter a lot in any software or service design, and I think good design is to default to a limited audience, and to be upfront and clear what th e scope of communication is.

Sometimes, like a forum where you can read everything from the start page, it is obvious, but in other areas, it is not. If you have to sign up, log in to access, then it is implied that access is for those signed up.

In the early days, the WWW was a public place, you ONLY went online to see public things, and aside from e-mail, any interaction was meant to be public (ie, signing a guestbook). But with online services acting as communications medium between people, we have to break away from that, and have sensible services where that communication is kept to its 'natural' audience.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Feb 14 2022 11:39 am

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Feb 14 2022 08:18 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android phon it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the app s collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open source and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. Th Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to physi ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functionalit current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don't n much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will do m fine. Play some music and I'm set.

Believe it or not I was happy with my personal phone being a flip phone with a pre-paid one year plan. If work required me to have a smart phone, the company would issue me one and i would noit install any non-business apps on it.

Anyways, 3G is being dropped in my area and has been decreasing all around m area. I was forced to upgrade. Tracfone had a special going on, and I got Samsung A11 for free after the discount.

Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect me to run apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but have had to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have to give a
Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives in the same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me is beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get people complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-mail, MS teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is probably a tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to SYS64738 on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:12 pm

Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Google search.

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum messages posted on a BBS can be read and searched on the web.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to Moondog on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:15 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to Boraxman on Mon Feb 14 2022 11:39 am

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to Moondog on Mon Feb 14 2022 08:18 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to MRO on Sun Feb 13 2022 11:31 am

There are videos on Youtube that show how to Un-Google an Android p it's funny to see how less useful they become. Even apps in the ap collect telemetry, so you have to install less mainstream open sour and put up with less polished function or ease of use.

Wifi triangulation still cannot be shut off, so keep that in mind. Pine64 linux phone contains dip switches under back case half to ph ut off wifi and cameras and mics and gps

I've seen some of Rob Braxman's videos. I'm OK with reduced functiona current phone is over 10 years old, it still has a keyboard, so I don' much. A web browser, phone, SMS and a telnet and/or SSH client will d fine. Play some music and I'm set.

Believe it or not I was happy with my personal phone being a flip phone w a pre-paid one year plan. If work required me to have a smart phone, the company would issue me one and i would noit install any non-business apps it.

Anyways, 3G is being dropped in my area and has been decreasing all aroun area. I was forced to upgrade. Tracfone had a special going on, and I g Samsung A11 for free after the discount.

Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect me to apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but have ha to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have to giv
Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives in the same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me is beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get peopl complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-mail, MS teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is probabl tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.

I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of management on
the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone, and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for
personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:33 am

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to SYS64738 on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:12 pm

Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Google search.

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum messages posted on a BBS can be read and searched on the web.

Nightfox

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

And miss out on all the insightful gems on FTN networks?


- Andre

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þ Synchronet þ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Andre to MRO on Tue Feb 15 2022 09:05 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

And miss out on all the insightful gems on FTN networks?

- Andre

my twitlisting and ip blocking is so fortified that i only see 3-4 people on dovenet.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 11:44 am

Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect me apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but have to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have to
Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives in t same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me is beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get pe complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-mail, teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is prob tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.

I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of management on the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone, and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

I don't care if it is a work phone, I'd want them to give me one. They want me to install this on my own personal phone.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:33 am

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to SYS64738 on Tue Feb 15 2022 08:12 pm

Indeed. But I too have been caught by that, thinking that what was posted on a BBS, was for the BBS, only to find it comes up in a Goog search.

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum messa posted on a BBS can be read and searched on the web.

Nightfox

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Agreed. Guest access when you had to dial in made sense, but now, it opens yourself up for abuse.

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to MRO on Wed Feb 16 2022 06:34 pm

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Agreed. Guest access when you had to dial in made sense, but now, it opens yourself up for abuse.

i would never allow guest access. sign up real quick and look around and dont call back. you'll be auto deleted in x amount of days.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

What perplexes me, is that there are people I know (admittedly few), who share these concerns, greatly, but still buy these items. One I know
will talk about Big Tech censorship, how Google skews its searches and manipulates us, but you can "Hey Google" in his house and Google
responds!

I think in part people arguing that privacy isn't important is a cope. They feel powerless, unwilling to fight or make the harder consumer choices to maintain freedom, so they just reorganise their values to
suit the situation pushed upon then.

No doubt. That is probably where the "I have nothing to hide" refrain comes from.

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Boraxman to Moondog on Wed Feb 16 2022 06:32 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Moondog to Boraxman on Tue Feb 15 2022 11:44 am

Work sort of requires me to have one. More specifically, they expect apps that don't work on mine. I generally can get away with it, but h to borrow my wifes to get an program set up or two. Why I would have
Chinese company my phone number and name, so that someone who lives i same city (and in some cases, works in the same office) can message me beyond me. These people just don't think of how silly this is. I get complaining that I'm "uncontactable" despite having a phone, SMS, e-ma teams, Zoom. But because I don't run this stupid other app which is p tool for Chinese spying and surveillance, it causes problems.

I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of management the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone, and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

I don't care if it is a work phone, I'd want them to give me one. They want to install this on my own personal phone.

My personal affairs are mine, not the company's. Some companies have a "use your own device" option for those who have better equipment that they are issued, but I don't care for company spying and the ability to wipe my phone with no notice.

---
þ Synchronet þ The Cave BBS - Since 1992 - cavebbs.homeip.net

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Wed Feb 16 2022 04:08 pm

What perplexes me, is that there are people I know (admittedly few), wh share these concerns, greatly, but still buy these items. One I know will talk about Big Tech censorship, how Google skews its searches and manipulates us, but you can "Hey Google" in his house and Google responds!

I think in part people arguing that privacy isn't important is a cope. They feel powerless, unwilling to fight or make the harder consumer choices to maintain freedom, so they just reorganise their values to suit the situation pushed upon then.

No doubt. That is probably where the "I have nothing to hide" refrain comes from.

Whenever people tell me they aren't fussed with monitoring and spying, I ask them for their phone, and if I can browse it. If they are saying they have nothing to hide, then lets prove it.



If they are OK with some anonymous person looking through their data, then surely someone they know and trust would be OK too.

Never had anyone comfortable with it yet. Good way to demonstrate they are really full of it.

Reminds me of this story, where there was a debate, and someone who was arguing against fiat money or something was saying that money was actually worthless. He put a $50 note on the table arguing it was worth nothing. His debate opponent then went to take it from here, whereup he quickly snatched it back!

---
þ Synchronet þ MS & RD BBs - bbs.mozysswamp.org

Moondog wrote to Boraxman <=-

I agree. Companies I have done work for also have a layer of
management on the phone that allows for them to push apps tothe phone,
and even wipe it remotely. I wouldn't want to get all comfy using my company cell for personal use, then lose everything due to a staff reduction.

I had whitelisted my old phone for ActiveSync, and when I upgraded, needed
to install Microsoft Entune. It's great if you have work apps that aren't on the play store, but for a company that doesn't reimburse for BYOD, it's a little heavy-handed; if you're going to install your infrastructure on my phone to give me the "privelige" of keeping abreast of workflow and potentially monitor my activity, you should at least pitch in for my cell phone plan.





... SURELY NOT EVERYONE WAS KUNG FU FIGHTING
--- MultiMail/DOS v0.52
þ Synchronet þ .: realitycheckbbs.org :: scientia potentia est :.

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

---
þ Synchronet þ Final Zone BBS - finalzone.ddns.net - www.xadara.com

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Otto Reverse to Boraxman on Wed Feb 16 2022 04:08 pm

Got nothing to hide? Then get naked!

---
þ Synchronet þ Final Zone BBS - finalzone.ddns.net - www.xadara.com

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do
you know that have their messages web accessible?

Synchronet itself does this.

Mewcenary.

---
þ Synchronet þ Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #20:
Doyle: Hey is this the kind of retard that drools and rubs shit in his hair? Norco, CA WX: 50.4øF, 24.0% humidity, 0 mph NE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs
---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

--- DIGITAL MAN wrote ---
Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts

the

BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have

their

messages web accessible?

Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).
--

I used to have a web interface. I should bring it back. I had it because I worked for EDS at the time and they had a proper firewall.

I used to voice validate users. In 1985.


---
* TARDIS BBS - Home of QUARKware * telnet bbs.cortex-media.info

Mewcenary wrote to Phigan <=-

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the

BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do

you know that have their messages web accessible?

Synchronet itself does this.

Well, assuming the sysop wants it to.

My BBS is not web-accessible.



... Gone crazy, be back later, please leave message.
--- MultiMail/Linux v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the B messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

synchronet's web interface.
a2k bbs has a nice web interface for msgs too.
there's a few fidonet on the web websites.

i didnt see a majorbbs that puts bbs msgs in a web forum

i used to link my msg bases to vbulletin via nntp plugin and nightfox did also. i got the idea from hax0r from hax0r's palace.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Got nothing to hide? Then get naked!

Be glad this is a text-only medium! lol

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Arelor to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 11:03 am

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Phigan to MRO on Sat Feb 26 2022 09:25 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts th messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The best that I know of.

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
Stepping Stone BBS
telnet://steppingstonebbs.com

---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS - steppingstonebbs.com

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Arelor to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 11:03 am

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts
the B messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that
have their messages web accessible?

Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: cr1mson to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:39 pm

And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The best that I know of.

I used to run vBulletin on Apache with the plug-in that linked it with my BBS via Synchronet's news server, but I decided to stop doing that. I think echicken's webv4 started to approach the kind of functionality included in things like vBulletin, so I didn't really think it was worth it to continue paying for vBulletin's ongoing fees.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 03:57 pm

not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

Startup sbbs with "w-" to disable the webserver.

From the Windows Sync control panel there's a "Web" menu. Uncheck auto start.


- Andre

---
þ Synchronet þ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Otto Reverse to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:40 am

Got nothing to hide? Then get naked!

Be glad this is a text-only medium! lol

good thing you didn't hear of paul casey.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: cr1mson to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:39 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Nightfox on Tue Feb 15 2022 06:20 pm

Yep.. Manye BBSes today have web interfaces where the public forum

that's why guest access to that shit should be turned off.

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts th messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that have their messages web accessible?

Echicken's one comes to mind, the first of all.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The best that I know of.

you really think that's better than steve wynn's at2k design?

https://i.imgur.com/G6X4CQK.png

https://i.imgur.com/PkPSmM7.png

https://i.imgur.com/hapUUWb.png


i know you've seen it.

i've always liked it. also it's nice and fast. i think it's the perfect design for a web interface to a bbs.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 03:57 pm

Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

no. you just turn off guest access to the msg base so the msg bases arent crawled by a search bot.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to cr1mson on Sun Feb 27 2022 04:00 pm

I used to run vBulletin on Apache with the plug-in that linked it with my BBS via Synchronet's news server, but I decided to stop doing that. I think echicken's webv4 started to approach the kind of functionality included in things like vBulletin, so I didn't really think it was worth it to continue paying for vBulletin's ongoing fees.

oh you paid? that's one thing i didnt do.

i liked it. it was just cludged together.
also, nobody used it. it looked great and it was cool but nobody used it.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

On 02-26-22 21:25, Phigan wrote to MRO <=-

Where is an example of this? So far, I only know of MajorBBS that puts
the BBS messages in a web forum as well. What BBSes do you know that
have their messages web accessible?

Synchronet is another.


... But that trick never works! -Rocky
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

On 02-27-22 15:57, Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-

Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality
by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What port forwarding? ;)


... Let us drink deep for death is inevitable.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:42 pm

Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web.
Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web
port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that
functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's
also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What port forwarding? ;)

You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there's an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..?
I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some level of protection.

Nightfox

---
þ Synchronet þ Digital Distortion: digitaldistortionbbs.com

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:25 pm

You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet?

On my BBS computers, yes.
--
digital man (rob)

Sling Blade quote #17:
Charles Bushman: A shovel just makes too goddamned much racket.
Norco, CA WX: 62.3øF, 12.0% humidity, 2 mph ENE wind, 0.00 inches rain/24hrs ---
þ Synchronet þ Vertrauen þ Home of Synchronet þ [vert/cvs/bbs].synchro.net

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:25 pm

You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there's an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..?
I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router
for some level of protection.

Numerous BBS systems are run directly with public IPs now via cloud solutions.

Also, although rare, some broadband providers allow a _range_ of public IPs to be allocated to consumers, so it's possible to dedicate one of these to a BBS host.

Synchronet doesn't come security hardened out of the box (I'd argue it should, maybe I should submit a pull request on this :-) ), but there is an article on Hardening on the Wiki.

Mewcenary.

---
þ Synchronet þ Extricate BBS - bbs.extricate.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to Vk3jed on Sun Feb 27 2022 10:25 pm

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:42 pm

Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web.
Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web
port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that
functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's
also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What por forwarding? ;)

You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there' an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..?
I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some level of protectio

Nightfox

Many rural areas have homes with a single computer in them. Village grandpas just skip the router and connect their computer directly to the ethernet link their ISPs give them. A router does not make much sense if you are only using a single computer.

Besides, with IPV6 a computer may have an Internet routable address and be completely exposed while being behind a router anyway.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Nightfox to cr1mson on Sun Feb 27 2022 04:00 pm

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: cr1mson to Arelor on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:39 pm

And a nice layout that echicken's web forum interface has also. The bes that I know of.

I used to run vBulletin on Apache with the plug-in that linked it with my BB via Synchronet's news server, but I decided to stop doing that. I think echicken's webv4 started to approach the kind of functionality included in things like vBulletin, so I didn't really think it was worth it to continue paying for vBulletin's ongoing fees.

Nightfox

I actually remember that from way-back. I too used your script with Synchonet and vBulletin. It was nice to import SBBS users into the forum and transfer messages between the two. That was quite nice back then. But ya, things have changed since then and echicken's approach fulfills certainly my needs as well as others. I still use the legacy telnet to write messages but it's nice to have a web-base forum with messages too that don't use telnet and particularly like the web side of things.

Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
Stepping Stone BBS
telnet://steppingstonebbs.com

---
þ Synchronet þ Stepping Stone BBS - steppingstonebbs.com

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:42 pm

On 02-27-22 15:57, Nightfox wrote to Arelor <=-

Many Synchronet BBSes have their messages available via the web. Many Synchronet sysops choose to enable this by forwarding the web port to their BBS machine. But a sysop could easily disable that functionality by not forwarding the web port, and I'm sure there's also a setting in Synchronet to have it not run its web server.

I love (not) how people assume we're all running behind a NAT. What port forwarding? ;)

well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some type of hardware firewall up.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: the nothing to hide a
By: cr1mson to Nightfox on Mon Feb 28 2022 03:52 am

I actually remember that from way-back. I too used your script with Synchonet and vBulletin. It was nice to import SBBS users into the forum and transfer messages between the two. That was quite nice back then. But ya, things have changed since then and echicken's approach fulfills certainly my needs as well as others. I still use the legacy telnet to write messages but it's nice to have a web-base forum with messages too that don't use telnet and particularly like the web side of things.

well another thing that was nice is the search feature of vbulletin.
vbulletin is good software. the nntp plugin not so good.it worked most of the time. it's just old and meant for an older version of vbulletin.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

On 02-27-22 22:25, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

You have all your ports exposed publicly to the internet? Or perhaps there's an alternative to NAT that I'm not aware of..? I thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a router, and I
thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some level of
protection.

NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

NAT is an ugly hack to help with IPv4 shortages.

First defence is only have the services (daemons) you need running and listening only on the IP/port combinations you want. If further limiting of access is needed, then there's this wonderful thing called a firewall. ;) iptables on Linux does an excellent job, and even Windows Firewall doesn't do a bad job, if properly configured.


... You were sent here as a warning to others, weren't you?
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

On 02-28-22 05:03, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some type of hardware firewall up. ---

That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.


... People are always available for work in the past tense.
--- MultiMail/Win v0.52
þ Synchronet þ Freeway BBS, Bendigo Australia. freeway.apana.org.au

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:57 pm

On 02-28-22 05:03, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some type of hardware firewall up. ---

That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.

... People are always available for work in the past tense.

so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again. that's all i'm geting.
---
þ Synchronet þ ::: BBSES.info - free BBS services :::

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:57 pm

well, we're assuming people here are somewhat powerusers, and they
have multiple computers and devices. also it helps to have some
type of hardware firewall up. ---

That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.

Probably does. Most home users only have a single IP.

Firewalls only preceeded NAT by few years, and stateful firewalls came a couple years after NAT.


- Andre

---
þ Synchronet þ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to Nightfox on Fri Mar 04 2022 06:55 pm

thought pretty much everyone with internet at home would be using a
router, and I thought NAT a standard feature of a router for some
level of protection.

NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

You're both conflating NAT and PAT, and neither of them screw up protocols. Stateful firewalls screw up protocols if they're misconfigured and not tracking the full conversation.

;) iptables on Linux does an excellent job

The only thing IPTABLES is good at is that it's stable and free. It's archaic and damn near useless for anything other than port blocking and logging traffic.


- Andre

---
þ Synchronet þ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Andre to Vk3jed on Fri Mar 04 2022 05:41 am

The only thing IPTABLES is good at is that it's stable and free. It's archai and damn near useless for anything other than port blocking and logging traffic.

I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine for redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocking and logging.

--
gopher://gopher.richardfalken.com/1/richardfalken

---
þ Synchronet þ Palantir BBS * palantirbbs.ddns.net * Pensacola, FL

I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine for redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocking and logging.

Yes, but that’s not IPTABLES doing any of that. All it’s doing is managing packet routing and state (I know I’m oversimplifying it, but let’s be realistic about what people actually do with it most of the time).


- Andre

---
ï¿­ Synchronet ï¿­ Radio Mentor BBS - bbs.radiomentor.org

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Andre to Arelor on Fri Mar 04 2022 08:22 am

I am more of a pf fan than an iptables fan, but Iptables is actually fine redirecting, man-in-the-middleing and doing other tricks other than blocki and logging.

Yes, but that's not IPTABLES doing any of that. All it's doing is managing packet routing and state (I know I'm oversimplifying it, but let's be realistic about what people actually do with it most of the time).

- Andre

If you want to split hairs, it is not Iptables doing that. It is Netfilter. Iptables is only loading rules into the kernel :-)

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On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again.

Maybe try reading the message. :)


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On 03-04-22 05:36, Andre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

That still doesn't necessarily mean NAT. Firewalls have been around _much_ longer than NAT.

Probably does. Most home users only have a single IP.

Another assumption - who says the BBS was going to be hosted at home? Sure, many are (including mine), but I could have used (and did consider using) a
PS.

Firewalls only preceeded NAT by few years, and stateful firewalls came
a couple years after NAT.

Sounds about right.


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On 03-04-22 05:41, Andre wrote to Vk3jed <=-

You're both conflating NAT and PAT, and neither of them screw up protocols. Stateful firewalls screw up protocols if they're
misconfigured and not tracking the full conversation.

Hmm, what about active FTP? DCC (on IRC)? Just to name a couple that have been affected.


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Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:43 pm

On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over again.

Maybe try reading the message. :)

you: nat nat nat. it's not nat. nat nat nat
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Vk3jed wrote to Nightfox <=-

On 02-27-22 22:25, Nightfox wrote to Vk3jed <=-

NAT != security. You've fallen for the big myth that NAT is somehow
more secure. All it does is screw up some protocols (FTP anyone?), and puts arbitrary limits on incoming traffic (2 BBSs on the same port, NO WAY!).

It's in no way a secure model, but I liked my first setup, where I had a single IP address and a Linux box with 2 network cards. I ran all of my services on the box directly with iptables running, and NATed the rest of my lan over the second card.

Easy, less hassle with NAT, and everything worked.

Admittedly, this was in kindler, gentler times.



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Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: MRO to Vk3jed on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:18 am

Re: Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Vk3jed to MRO on Sun Mar 06 2022 08:43 pm

On 03-04-22 05:11, MRO wrote to Vk3jed <=-

so what are we arguing about? you neek saying NAT over and over
again.

Maybe try reading the message. :)

you: nat nat nat. it's not nat. nat nat nat

All these nats. I think someone needs to start spraying for bugs.
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Sincerely,
Jon Justvig
Stepping Stone BBS
telnet://steppingstonebbs.com
http://steppingstonebbs.com
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On 03-04-22 06:56, poindexter FORTRAN wrote to Vk3jed <=-

It's in no way a secure model, but I liked my first setup, where I had
a single IP address and a Linux box with 2 network cards. I ran all of
my services on the box directly with iptables running, and NATed the
rest of my lan over the second card.

Easy, less hassle with NAT, and everything worked.

Yeah not a bad option, if you need only one IP. And there's other ways to harden Internet facing systems, if needed.


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Quoting Boraxman to Ogg <=-

I totally agree. We don't expect privacy so it isn't an issue for many
people.

I'm a quad, and I have Amazon Services throughout the house. For myself,
the abdication of my privacy isn't a convenience, it is how I can be as independent as I can.

Security v. Freedom is a lofty argument. The more something is secure, the
less freedom we have. Many people forget this and want 100% of both. Well, there is nothing that is ever 100% secure nor is there anything that is
ever 100% free -- I think of how much a "free" dog costs in medical bills
after the fact.

The best someone can do is strive to strike a balance between the two.

However, for most people, they don't understand the concept of IoT and
never update their TVs, refrigerators, toasters, you name it. Whatever they have in their LANs that pull an IP is vulnerable and a security risk.

People also don't value their information. They don't understand that the myriad of trash they are getting in their email or twit feed, etc. is
largely their own making.

Before we can increase electronic security, we need the public to be
educated on what electronic security touches. I think the average person
would be confounded and overwhelmed with some of the specifics.

Jazzy J


* AmyBW v2.16 *
... I use Windows... on my car, on my house, but not on my computer!

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Jazzy J wrote to Boraxman <=-

@MSGID: <622DDCFC.2296.dove-internet@jayscafe.net>
@REPLY: <62084A5E.5205.dove-int@bbs.mozysswamp.org>

Quoting Boraxman to Ogg <=-

I totally agree. We don't expect privacy so it isn't an issue for many people.

I'm a quad, and I have Amazon Services throughout the house. For
myself, the abdication of my privacy isn't a convenience, it is how I
can be as independent as I can.

Security v. Freedom is a lofty argument. The more something is secure,
the less freedom we have. Many people forget this and want 100% of
both. Well, there is nothing that is ever 100% secure nor is there anything that is ever 100% free -- I think of how much a "free" dog
costs in medical bills after the fact.

The best someone can do is strive to strike a balance between the two.

However, for most people, they don't understand the concept of IoT and never update their TVs, refrigerators, toasters, you name it. Whatever they have in their LANs that pull an IP is vulnerable and a security
risk.

People also don't value their information. They don't understand that
the myriad of trash they are getting in their email or twit feed, etc.
is largely their own making.

Before we can increase electronic security, we need the public to be educated on what electronic security touches. I think the average
person would be confounded and overwhelmed with some of the specifics.

Jazzy J

Who is going to educate the public though? There is no real incentive for the companies selling these products to do it, in fact, they would thrive of ignorance and lack of knowledge, as people would default to just purchasing something to fix a problem.

I think people don't care because they don't want to have to fight, or be inconvenienced. So instead they try to rationalise away giving away their privacy and control.

I'm not optimistic about where technology and our relationship is going, not at all.

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Re: the nothing to hide a
By: Digital Man to Phigan on Sun Feb 27 2022 01:33 am

Most Synchronet BBSes (e.g. web.synchro.net).

Aha, up there under "Forum". Not bad! I had not seen anyone set that up yet, only the telnet client in a web page thing. Going to check out themeability or whatever. Thanks :)

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